A Response to John Pavlovitz…If I Have Gay Children

Recently John Pavlovitz, a self professed 17 year ministry veteran recently wrote a blog called “If I have Gay Children”.  Pavlovitz’s ministry experience is unknown but given that his “About” page states, “generally trying to live-out the red letters of Jesus” and “I welcome you to say what you believe needs to be said in response, knowing that ultimately the truth is somewhere in the middle.” He is, in all likelihood, a liberal Christian if regenerate at all.  His article also helps to make the point of his theologically liberal perspective evident.

I have included a link to his page so that you might read the entire article, but thought I would go through the paragraphs point by point.

Why take so much time to analyze the writings of an unknown ministry leader?  Because these small potatoes leaders are truly the ones deceiving people by replacing the BIBLE with emotionalism.  The little guys are the ones that go unopposed in their infectious worldview.  As a Christian, we must expose all wolves in sheep’s clothing, not just the ones that have best selling books.

PAVLOVITZ’S ARTICLE

http://johnpavlovitz.com/2014/09/17/if-i-have-gay-children-four-promises-from-a-christian-pastorparent/

Let’s take a look at the paragraphs and put his well written and very emotional article into perspective. Pavlovitz makes four points.


 

Point #1 – “If I have gay children, you’ll all know it.”

His point is that if he has gay children he won’t try to cover it up.  No major issue with this point except he states the following”

“most gay kids spend their entire existence being horribly, excruciatingly uncomfortable.”  

Really?  Is this true?  In a society that not only embraces homosexuality but celebrates it, I find it hard to believe that MOST gay children feel uncomfortable. If they do, one might point to Paul in Romans Chapter 1 regarding the suppression of truth.  They feel guilt because they are guilty; we all are!  The Christian knows his or her guilt and looks to Christ for salvation from the guilt.  The Christian doesn’t justify his guilt nor build his identity around it!  There is, however a larger point here.  Homosexuality is about sexual identity.  Should a child have such an identity; either homo or hetero?  Should children not be playing with friends at the park, riding their bikes and playing with American Girl dolls?  If a young child has a sexual identity, one must look at the parents and ask why?  What are you teaching your children if they have a sexual identity at such a young age?   


 

Point #2 – If I have gay children, I’ll pray for them.

Certainly no one would disagree with that!  We should be praying for our children no matter their sexual orientation, however my definition of prayer is vastly different than his.

“I won’t pray for them to be made “normal”. I’ve lived long enough to know that if my children are gay, that is their normal.”

That’s nice, this Christian ministry leader has placed his definition of “normal” above that of God’s definition.  The bible defines homosexuality as abnormal and against nature (Romans 1). This “ministry leader” believes that God is wrong and he is correct so he won’t pray for God’s hand in his childrens lives but instead:

“I will pray for God to protect them; from the ignorance and hatred and violence that the world will throw at them,”

He will pray that those who believe in God’s word will be stopped from speaking the truth of God in the lives of his children.  He will pray for his children to continue to live in rebellion against God and ask that God will protect them from the violence that is thrown at them.  Excuse me Mr Pavolvitz, what violence are you referring to?  Where is all this violence and hatred that you speak of?  Over the last few years EVERY case of violence of intimidation against homosexuals has been shown to be false! I know I hear all the time about all the churches in the world getting all it’s ignorant members together to beat up gay people!  You sir are the ignorant one!  You are the one replacing God’s holy word and plan with your own feelings. That is I G N O R A N T and bigoted.  I think honosexuality is a sin and you call me ignorant and hateful. How is calling those who stand on the shoulders of giants for 2000 years the ignorant ones?  Are we to believe that 2000 years of theologians have gotten it wrong, but YOU became magically enlightened and have it right?  Doesn’t that sound just a tad arrogant?  Another win for liberal tolerance and liberal thinking.

Think about it, he presupposes that God is not powerful enough to redeem a gay child for His glory so why bother praying for it?


 

Point #3 – If I have gay children, I’ll love them. 

Well, Mr Pavolvitz, I will love my children too, but the difference between my love and yours is that I will apply God’s definition of love, not my own emotional definition.  God’s love is defined in the cross.  God showed true love thought self sacrifice and this sacrifice requires us to be obedient to the Word of God! You defination of love is self gratification.  As long as your kids are “happy” you have all you need to justify their sin.

You say you would:

“I won’t love them despite their sexuality, and I won’t love them because of it.”

I will love my children because they have intrinsic value to God and He is sovereign over them.  I won’t accept their sin, but rather fall on my knees that God’s will be done in their lives.  You want to replace the true and living God for the purposes of appearing tolerant to your liberal friends, I will be obedient to God’s word no matter the cost.  This sacrifice is true love.


 

Point #4 – If I have gay children, most likely; I have gay children.

“If my kids are going to be gay, well they pretty much already are.

God has already created them and wired them, and placed the seed of who they are within them. Psalm 139 says that He, “stitched them together in their mother’s womb”. The incredibly intricate stuff that makes them uniquely them; once-in-History souls, has already been uploaded into their very cells.”

As I previously stated he presupposes that God is not powerful enough to redeem his children from homosexuality, but now he assumes that God created his Children gay.  Don’t get me wrong, I believe God predestined such actions, but that does not mean that being gay should be celebrated.  God created me with a desire to sleep with every female that walks the earth, but he put limitations on my use of sexuality to a marital relationship.  I was “born to have sex” so am I to assume that if my wife looks down upon me for sleeping with my neighbor that she is intolerant?

His reference of Psalm 139 only works in this context if you assume that God creates people gay and there is no other factor in creating sexual identity! Furthermore, he assumes that anything as part of this creation is to be celebrated without boundaries.  Where’s the evidence for that from within scripture or science?  I, on the other hand, have the Bible to make my point:

“Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

We see from this passage that God doesn’t like sexual sin (among others) but He redeems it through the cross.  Now why would God need to redeem something that He celebrates?  Furthermore, contrary to Mr. Pavlovitz, God appears to believe that He has the power to change people from gay to straight!  “Theses WERE some of you”.  Lots of “weres” in that passage, not so many “ares”.


 

I think all of this can be put into one paragraph that is the caveat to his theology (or lack thereof):

“As you’ve been reading, you may have been rolling your eyes, or clicking the roof of your mouth, or drafting familiar Scriptures to send me, or praying for me to repent, or preparing to Unfriend me, or writing me off as a sinful, evil, Hell-bound heretic… but with as much gentleness and understanding as I can muster; I really couldn’t care less.”

This man is not seeking the truth of God. He believes he has it all together.  He would rather commit societal child abuse by teaching his children that homoexuality is good, right, normal and godly than teaching them the true the living faith.  He would rather contribute to the culture of death that is homosexuality than give his children the word the brings life.   Though his article seems good, loving and tolerant, in reality it is an attack on the living God.  He preaches worldly tolerance while calling 2000 years of believers ignorant, and hateful.  We should see him through the lens of Christ and call him to repentance.  How dare such a man call Jesus Christ, His apostles and his church hateful and ignorant?  Do you not see the irony of such a statement?  God got it wrong for 2000 years but now thanks to liberals, we are enlightened!

I will love, pray, and accept my children just as Pavolvitz will, but the love I show will be in Christ, not apart from it.  Mr Pavlovitz, I will do something else as well.  I will pray that the living God will protect your children from you.  That He is more powerful than your rebellion and that in spite of you, your children will find the true and loving God what patiently knitted them together and predestined them to glory (I hope).

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    • Joe
    • September 27th, 2014

    Thank you for this response! You broke it down pretty well.

  1. God didn’t get it wrong for 2000 years, people like you got (and obviously, are continuing to get) it wrong, and thank God that people like John are saying so.

    • Who says? You? Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that “people like me” got it wrong 2000 years ago? Do you even know what Arsenokoites means? I doubt it! Do you honestly think that 100% of the early church and the entire Jewish population prior to Christianity got it wrong, but you and John got it right? How arrogant can you be? Perhaps you can grow up a bit and engage with my article as opposed to just sniping on a blog? Unfortunately, I have found that Progressives (aka Fascists) can’t engage with logic because they are not capable of thinking logically. As a group of people you are intolerant, self centered, 6 year olds who aren’t happy unless you are offended and taking action to shut others down for your offense. You are not willing to accept different opinions but are militant on shutting down others opinions under the guise of “hate speech”. You don’t want people like me to accept a homsexual lifestyle, you want me to celebrate it at all cost. More liberal “tolerance” in action.

      • Let’s see, evidence … logic … gee, I wonder if my 6yo mind can come up with any support for my claim … ok, how about:

        Thousands of years of hate, violence, and war in the name of God.

        The horrific treatment of women throughout history, even to this day, by men of so-called, “faith.”

        The justification of Christian imperialism and the murder and/or enslavement of peoples who came under Christian control throughout the past 2000 years.

        “Heretics”: Torture. Burnings. Drownings. Stonings. Hangings. Basically, it’s been rare occasions when the church has got it right.

        But then, as it has been said, “you will know them by their fruits.”

        In the end, however, the reason I feel comfortable in stating that the church and many, maybe most, of its followers got it wrong for 2000 years? The complete and utter disregard for teachings of Jesus, a Man who, if you actually understood His words, would pretty much despise everything the church has stood for over the past 2000 years.

        I guess I’d conclude by saying, the LGBT community is not asking you to celebrate anything about our lives.

        We are, however, winning the battle to stop men like you from dictating to us how our lives are to be lived. We’re no longer going to allow you to tell us whom we can or cannot marry. We’re no longer going to allow you to bash us without repercussion. We’re no longer going to sit quietly by as you trample our rights.

        We will no longer accept 2nd class citizenship because of your religious beliefs and, worse, your specific and narrow interpretations of scripture (Yea, I know the word, “arsenokoites” … disagree with you there too, but’s that just crazy progressive Westmont College and Fuller Seminary speaking.)

        Your own words betray you. You have no logic, you’re just a bully who, like many many men before you, is supremely pissed-off that you no longer get to tell others how to live their lives.

        You see, this is where guys like you always get tripped up. You believe you are injured because you can no longer injure others. And you just can’t get your head around that.

  2. Well now that I know that you graduated from Fuller, I certainly will not argue from within the pages of scripture and certainly you will be better versed in historical revisionism than I am. That is evident based on the long diatribe of ad hominem, and not answering my question Instead I ask you two questions. (1) Find ONE patristic father who agrees with you in any way. By the way, Matthew Vines is not a patristic father. (2) Where do you draw the line in combining Christian with sin? Should I identify and celebrate my tendency toward violence (I’m a violent Christian) or adultery or lust – I’m an adulterous lustful Christian? Should I start a violent Christian club? Write books on it and show that even though Jesus said otherwise, that he didn’t really understand the types of pressure Christians would be under in 2014 and the type of violence I have is not the type he was talking about? Should I redefine words, and act like a big baby if people don’t agree with my perspective? The line is certainly not a biblical one so I am curious where you draw the line? Certainly you are as passionate about protecting those who practice bestality or incenst because after all it’s “people like you who” have hurt these people for not allowing them to sleep with their 9 year old child..

    Lastly, let me respond to your last commend “Guys like me” Let me tell you about my friend Robby. Robby was gay. I say “was” not because he is no longer gay but because he killed himself over it. Robby confided in me that he was gay about 3 years ago as he was struggling with reconciling his faith with his feeling. ROBBY, not I, came to the conclusion that celibacy was best for him. I told him I would help him in anyway I could. I supported him and love him and treated him as a true friend (which he most certainly was) – I realize that’s strange coming from a “guy like me” (which sure sounds like a bigoted statement by-the-way). Where Robby did NOT get support was from the so-called gay christian community. They treated him like crap because he desired to change his behavior and that didn’t fit the talking points of the gay christian community. He was tormented to the point where he took his own life. It was not the orthodox Christian community – you know “guys like me” – who killed him. It was people like you who are so hellbent on supporting your ideas that you will barrel over anyone in your way. So before you throw your HATE toward me, I suggest you look internally, because this is just one story of many.

    I must say, I don’t give one bit of damn what you do. I don’t care if your gay or straight, black or white. If you want to sleep with elephants, be-my-guest! I couldn’t sincerely give a crap. What I do care about is being forced to celebrate a lifestyle that I disagree with and goes against my faith and the rule of law in the USA (it’s called religious freedom, look it up). I don’t expect you to celebrate my relationships and I sure as hell should not be forced to celebrate yours. This of course isn’t the way it works because you have been treated terribly throughout history and Chick Fil A doesn’t like you ad Hobby Lobby doesn’t want to pay for your insurance. Get over it, imagine how much more effective you’d be if you focused your time and talent on doing something as opposed to being offended all the time.

    By the way, myself and a bunch of other bigoted, hateful, ignorant Christians people like me, get together on January 29th to have a toast to our friend Robby who killed himself because of the narrative you and the author of the original article espouse to. This may come as a shock to you but I actually miss my friend deeply which probably doesn’t fit within you paradyme because you’re so damn busy trying to feel hated that you can’t see through your own prejudice.

    Sad…

  3. You asked a question, I answered it. Not ad hominem (look it up.)

    You didn’t ask about the Patristics in your first comment, so I can’t be faulted for not addressing them specifically, but I stand by my earlier statements: their work helped create a dogmatic faith and a hate-fueled church of which Jesus would be ashamed.

    You brought up Matthew Vines, not I, and though he seems to be an awesome kid, I would agree he appears to be several centuries too young to be a Patristic. Duh.

    Your question regarding sin has no relevance, as it’s my belief (yes, like you, I’m also allowed to have beliefs) there’s nothing inherently sinful about homosexuality.

    And, despite your words to contrary, you very much care about what I do. Because, evidently my having the same rights as you is, somehow, forcing you to “celebrate” my life and threatening your “religious freedom.” The only “threat” to you is you will no longer be able infringe upon my rights (Equal Protection. Look it up.)

    Horrors! You poor victim! You will only be allowed to go to the church of your choice, raise your kids as you see fit (home-schooled, I’d bet), marry whomever you want, select to follow which TV/medias you do or don’t like, boycott same sex marriages, travel freely around the world, create an armory in your home, buy or not buy goods and services from providers of your choosing, vote for your representatives in government, and enjoy every other liberty afforded American citizens.

    What you will no longer enjoy is the ability to force other people to live by your narrow view of the world.

    That’s not Fascism, that’s called Freedom. Liberty for All. Look it up.

    And it’s terrible about your friend. Perhaps if his family and friends had loved him in the way John Pavlovitz describes, he’d still be alive today.

    I’m leaving now. Either you understand or don’t, but let’s not waste any more time on this. I only came to stand up for John, and I’ve done so.

    • Finally some truth. I think that if he did have a loving family he would probably would be different. Unfortunately he didn’t. The question is how would that difference play out? Would it be that he would not be gay? Just question? Of course accepting such a promise would mean rejecting the homosexual narrative and I doubt you would do that.

      So I have read Vines and Brownson, have you read anybody on the other side? Have you read Dr james White or Dr Michael Brown? I doubt it. But after all seeking truth is not really the important part is it? It’s about perpetuating a narrative that love is all about self gratification and not about self sacrifice and that’s the problem.

    • C
    • December 29th, 2014

    Mr pavlovitz was hired as a youth pastor at my church and let go not long after. He’s very controversial and self absorbed. he wrote this blog while unemployed. What a great time to write it huh? Check out his entire blog and see how many times he quotes scripture.

    • Well, just like the previous commenter from Fuller, scripture is not his strong suite. Unfortunately there are probably more churches that will hire him then not at the moment which is a sad state of affairs. See this has nothing to do with homosexuality. It has everything to do with being true to orthodox Christianity. Even if I wasn’t a believing Christian I certainly could read the Bible and determine that it is against sexual sin and that homosexuality is one of those sins. We have allowed the homosexual activist to control the agenda and it is vastly affected the church. I fear this is a losing battle until Christ decides to cast judgement upon humanity for our sins ala Romans chapter 1. But those who desire to put their own feelings above the truth don’t really care about that now do they?

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